Comments on: The Two Stooges: Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/ A Fresh Look at News, Politics and History Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:16:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: Steve Plonk http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-910 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:42:27 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-910 Me three... Seems strange that the Wikipedia has its definition of genocide interpreted in the way, you, Stokely did. I think that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong's personification of the word genocide is a "slam dunk". Those folks were the pits. However, Stokely, your point about genocide with the Amerindians is well taken. Why didn't you see the similarity in the other incidents? Just because H:itler, et al "weren't successful" doesn't mean that the definition wasn't valid for them. There are still plenty of Amerindians in our country, even though they are only about 1-2% of the population of the United States. Lately, the birthrates have been making a comeback. However,there are some tribes of Amerindians who are totally extinct, like the MicMacs and the Caribs. Me three… Seems strange that the Wikipedia has its definition of genocide interpreted in the way, you, Stokely did. I think that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong’s personification of the word genocide is a “slam dunk”. Those folks were the pits.

However, Stokely, your point about genocide with the Amerindians is well taken. Why didn’t you see the similarity in the other incidents? Just because H:itler, et al “weren’t successful” doesn’t mean that the definition wasn’t valid for them. There are still plenty of Amerindians in our country, even though they are only about 1-2% of the population of the United States. Lately, the birthrates have been making a comeback. However,there are some tribes of Amerindians who are totally extinct, like the MicMacs and the Caribs.

]]> by: Caryn http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-906 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:43:45 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-906 "I don’t think any of them meant to specifically destroy a national or ethnic group" Wow ... you're kidding, right? “I don’t think any of them meant to specifically destroy a national or ethnic group”

Wow … you’re kidding, right?

]]> by: brooklyn http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-898 Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:23:31 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-898 Well, I think I agree with you, Stokey. I don't see why you say you don't get the message -- I think my message is roughly what you are saying. And what Anemone is saying. Simplistic "good vs. evil" interpretations of genocide don't fly -- not now, not ever. No human being on earth right now is more than six degrees removed from "evil", and it's about time some nations (including mine) began confronting some of their demons. I'll get to the native Americans soon, I promise. I'm just getting started here. Well, I think I agree with you, Stokey. I don’t see why you say you don’t get the message — I think my message is roughly what you are saying. And what Anemone is saying. Simplistic “good vs. evil” interpretations of genocide don’t fly — not now, not ever. No human being on earth right now is more than six degrees removed from “evil”, and it’s about time some nations (including mine) began confronting some of their demons.

I’ll get to the native Americans soon, I promise. I’m just getting started here.

]]> by: Stokely http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-897 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:46:47 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-897 I’m missing the point. I tend to think of genocide as ethnic cleansing, not a purge of the intelligentsia or potential dissidents. Perhaps I’m parsing words, but the importance of this (to me) is how it would apply in a world court. If we were to judge Sadham Hussein’s crime (gassing 15, 000 Kurds) against the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki; our conclusion would be that it’s okay for us to do that but wrong for him to do that. Same thing for the slaughter of an entire Kurdish village - we could pardon Lt. Calley for a similar act of mass murder. From the Wikipedia definition of genocide, I don’t see that as applying to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Sadham. One could argue that all of them were stupid and cruel; but I don’t think any of them meant to specifically destroy a national or ethnic group. Two examples - no one would suggest that Herbert Hoover envisioned the near-destruction of the American people because of his economic policies. And secondly, wars in Korea and Vietnam resulted in the death of 8-10 million soldiers and citizens from the various countries involved; but no one would suggest that this mass killing was genocidal. One would like an apology from every German who supported the Nazi’s. But first we must acknowledge that their effort to destroy the Jewish race failed. Our effort to destroy the American Indian succeeded. I believe it is the largest-scale successful genocide in man’s history. I’m missing the point. I tend to think of genocide as ethnic cleansing, not a purge of the intelligentsia or potential dissidents. Perhaps I’m parsing words, but the importance of this (to me) is how it would apply in a world court.

If we were to judge Sadham Hussein’s crime (gassing 15, 000 Kurds) against the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki; our conclusion would be that it’s okay for us to do that but wrong for him to do that. Same thing for the slaughter of an entire Kurdish village - we could pardon Lt. Calley for a similar act of mass murder.

From the Wikipedia definition of genocide, I don’t see that as applying to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Sadham. One could argue that all of them were stupid and cruel; but I don’t think any of them meant to specifically destroy a national or ethnic group. Two examples - no one would suggest that Herbert Hoover envisioned the near-destruction of the American people because of his economic policies. And secondly, wars in Korea and Vietnam resulted in the death of 8-10 million soldiers and citizens from the various countries involved; but no one would suggest that this mass killing was genocidal.

One would like an apology from every German who supported the Nazi’s. But first we must acknowledge that their effort to destroy the Jewish race failed. Our effort to destroy the American Indian succeeded. I believe it is the largest-scale successful genocide in man’s history.

]]> by: brooklyn http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-896 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:17:29 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-896 I have to put an addendum on my own article. I spent some more time reading about this today, and it's becoming more clear that Russia's ruinous collectivization program was aimed at eradicating a Ukrainian nationalist movement (Ukraine, Eastern Europe's "breadbasket", was the hardest hit during the forced famines of the 1930's). Apparently many Ukranians now view Stalin's actions as politically motivated. I've also learned that the Ukranians -- who are now independent of Russia, but were then part of the Soviet Union -- have coined the word <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor rel="nofollow">Holodomor</a> to describe this tragic period in their history. I have to put an addendum on my own article. I spent some more time reading about this today, and it’s becoming more clear that Russia’s ruinous collectivization program was aimed at eradicating a Ukrainian nationalist movement (Ukraine, Eastern Europe’s “breadbasket”, was the hardest hit during the forced famines of the 1930’s). Apparently many Ukranians now view Stalin’s actions as politically motivated. I’ve also learned that the Ukranians — who are now independent of Russia, but were then part of the Soviet Union — have coined the word Holodomor to describe this tragic period in their history.

]]> by: anemone http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-895 Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:18:13 +0000 http://www.thecherryorchard.org/2007/01/17/the-two-stooges-joseph-stalin-and-mao-zedong/#comment-895 exactly. genocides don't happen by accident. there is no such thing as spontaneous genocide - it does not happen out of nothing. it doesn't appear from nowhere, but has been ripening for quite a while already. a crime like this is the horrible climax of a long preparation process. in time of crisis (military, economic, ideological, etc.), people get nervous and tend to blame their leaders. the leaders can neither prove the crisis is not their fault (cause most of the time it is), nor offer instant solutions (and most of the time, can't offer any solutions at all), so the obvious way for them is to blame someone else. it's easy to create a scapegoat, because people want one. things are easier to bear of you can blame someone else. if your are not responsible. if someone else is. whose fault? not mine, not ours. it's all because of them! self-redemption through creation of a 'feindbild'...of a threat... of an enemy. an ideolgy is created to shape this image of an enemy. propaganda makes it part of the consensus of opinion. and once the enemy is identified as such and agreed upon by common consent, once everyone is convinced he's a threat to our existence, it is only a small step to war (if the enemy lives far away) or genocide (if he lives among us). yes, genocide, like war, always serves a functional purpose. it is planned. it's prepared. it's tended like a plant from perfect soil (crisis) by gardeners ( leaders) that have a great interest in its growth and blossoming... and in its bearing fruit. exactly. genocides don’t happen by accident. there is no such thing as spontaneous genocide - it does not happen out of nothing.
it doesn’t appear from nowhere, but has been ripening for quite a while already. a crime like this is the horrible climax of a long preparation process.

in time of crisis (military, economic, ideological, etc.), people get nervous and tend to blame their leaders. the leaders can neither prove the crisis is not their fault (cause most of the time it is), nor offer instant solutions (and most of the time, can’t offer any solutions at all), so the obvious way for them is to blame someone else.

it’s easy to create a scapegoat, because people want one. things are easier to bear of you can blame someone else. if your are not responsible. if someone else is.
whose fault? not mine, not ours. it’s all because of them! self-redemption through creation of a ‘feindbild’…of a threat… of an enemy.

an ideolgy is created to shape this image of an enemy. propaganda makes it part of the consensus of opinion.
and once the enemy is identified as such and agreed upon by common consent, once everyone is convinced he’s a threat to our existence, it is only a small step to war (if the enemy lives far away) or genocide (if he lives among us).

yes, genocide, like war, always serves a functional purpose. it is planned. it’s prepared. it’s tended like a plant from perfect soil (crisis) by gardeners ( leaders) that have a great interest in its growth and blossoming… and in its bearing fruit.

]]>